Capacité activée d'une créature qui requiert son sacrifice

Bonjour à tous.

Je me suis posé une question de règle assez épineuse depuis que je me suis penché sur le déroulement de l'activation d'une capacité ou le lancement d'un sort.
Il me semble exact que pour faire cela, on doit d'abord annoncer sa (ou ses) cibles puis ensuite payer les couts.

Le problème se pose avec les créatures possédant des capacités activées qui ciblent des créatures et qui pour être activées nécéssitent le sacrifice de celle ci.

Exemple : cracheuse de fumée

Est ce que j'ai le droit d'activer la capacité de la cracheuse de fumée en la ciblant elle même.
En effet, si on suit la logique de l'activation des capacités, j'annonce ma cible : Cracheuse de fumée, puis je paye le cout : je la sacrifie.
Bien sur, la capacité ne se resoudra pas, faute de cible légale à la résolution de la capacité(la créature n'étant plus sur le champ de bataille)

Mais ma question porte sur la légalité de la cible lors de l'activation de la capacité.

La cracheuse peut elle se sacrifier librement en se ciblant elle même..?

Merci de m'apporter vos réponses précises SVP notemment en terme de texte de regle a l'appui.

[ Dernière modification par Ariesnomu le 20 mar 2011 à 22h32 ]

Non.

Tu sacrifies la Cracheuse de fumée (qui pars donc "normalement" dans le cimetière de son propriétaire). La capacité va ensuite sur la pile, et tu cibles une créature pour qu'elle gagne -1/-1.

Je n'ai pas trouvé de point de règle à propos du sacrifice (du moins, un exemple). Il y a cependant des points sur le sacrifice qui sont assez bien détaillés.

Je viens de voir ma réponse dans le Gatherer concernant la carte.

Elle peut se cibler elle meme et la capacité fizzle par la suite.
Donc tu as sans doute faux dans ta réponse

Merci quand meme

Bonjour,

Le 20/03/2011 à 22:37, elfemax37 avait écrit ...

Non.

Tu sacrifies la Cracheuse de fumée (qui pars donc "normalement" dans le cimetière de son propriétaire). La capacité va ensuite sur la pile, et tu cibles une créature pour qu'elle gagne -1/-1.

Je n'ai pas trouvé de point de règle à propos du sacrifice (du moins, un exemple). Il y a cependant des points sur le sacrifice qui sont assez bien détaillés.

N'importe quoi.


Oui elle peut se cibler elle-même, c'est dû à la chronologie d'activcation d'une capacité que tu as citée.
Pour les règles, tu sembles avoir lu le nécessaire, m'enfin la chronologie est décrite par les règles suivantes :

602.2a The player announces that he or she is activating the ability. If an activated ability is being activated from a hidden zone, the card that has that ability is revealed. That ability is created on the stack as an object that’s not a card. It becomes the topmost object on the stack. It has the text of the ability that created it, and no other characteristics. Its controller is the player who activated the ability. The ability remains on the stack until it’s countered, it resolves, or an effect moves it elsewhere.

601.2b If the spell is modal the player announces the mode choice (see rule 700.2). If the player wishes to splice any cards onto the spell (see rule 702.44), he or she reveals those cards in his or her hand. If the spell has alternative or additional costs that will be paid as it’s being cast such as buyback, kicker, or convoke costs (see rules 117.8 and 117.9), the player announces his or her intentions to pay any or all of those costs (see rule 601.2e). A player can’t apply two alternative methods of casting or two alternative costs to a single spell. If the spell has a variable cost that will be paid as it’s being cast (such as an {X} in its mana cost; see rule 107.3), the player announces the value of that variable. If a cost that will be paid as the spell is being cast includes hybrid mana symbols, the player announces the nonhybrid equivalent cost he or she intends to pay. Previously made choices (such as choosing to cast a spell with flashback from a graveyard or choosing to cast a creature with morph face down) may restrict the player’s options when making these choices.

601.2c The player announces his or her choice of an appropriate player, object, or zone for each target the spell requires. A spell may require some targets only if an alternative or additional cost (such as a buyback or kicker cost), or a particular mode, was chosen for it; otherwise, the spell is cast as though it did not require those targets. If the spell has a variable number of targets, the player announces how many targets he or she will choose before he or she announces those targets. The same target can’t be chosen multiple times for any one instance of the word “target” on the spell. However, if the spell uses the word “target” in multiple places, the same object, player, or zone can be chosen once for each instance of the word “target” (as long as it fits the targeting criteria). If any effects say that an object or player must be chosen as a target, the player chooses targets so that he or she obeys the maximum possible number of such effects without violating any rules or effects that say that an object or player can’t be chosen as a target. The chosen players, objects, and/or zones each become a target of that spell. (Any abilities that trigger when those players, objects, and/or zones become the target of a spell trigger at this point; they’ll wait to be put on the stack until the spell has finished being cast.)
Example: If a spell says “Tap two target creatures,” then the same creature can’t be
chosen twice; the spell requires two different legal targets. A spell that says “Destroy
target artifact and target land,” however, can target the same artifact land twice
because it uses the word “target” in multiple places.

601.2d If the spell requires the player to divide or distribute an effect (such as damage or counters) among one or more targets, the player announces the division. Each of these targets must receive at least one of whatever is being divided.

601.2e The player determines the total cost of the spell. Usually this is just the mana cost. Some spells have additional or alternative costs. Some effects may increase or reduce the cost to pay, or may provide other alternative costs. Costs may include paying mana, tapping permanents, sacrificing permanents, discarding cards, and so on. The total cost is the mana cost or alternative cost (as determined in rule 601.2b), plus all additional costs and cost increases, and minus all cost reductions. If the mana component of the total cost is reduced to nothing by cost reduction effects, it is considered to be {0}. It can’t be reduced to less than {0}. Once the total cost is determined, any effects that directly affect the total cost are applied. Then the resulting total cost becomes “locked in.” If effects would change the total cost after this time, they have no effect.

601.2f If the total cost includes a mana payment, the player then has a chance to activate mana abilities (see rule 605, “Mana Abilities”). Mana abilities must be activated before costs are paid.

601.2g The player pays the total cost in any order. Partial payments are not allowed. Unpayable costs can’t be paid.
Example: You cast Death Bomb, which costs {3}{B} and has an additional cost of sacrificing a creature. You sacrifice Thunderscape Familiar, whose effect makes your black spells cost {1} less to cast. Because a spell’s total cost is “locked in” before payments are actually made, you pay {2}{B}, not {3}{B}, even though you’re sacrificing the Familiar.

601.2h Once the steps described in 601.2a–g are completed, the spell becomes cast. Any abilities that trigger when a spell is cast or put onto the stack trigger at this time. If the spell’s controller had priority before casting it, he or she gets priority.

En remplaçant "spell" par "ability" et "cast" par "activate" pour les règles 601.2x

Au temps pour moi.

Dans ton exemple il n'est pas question de cible