Façonneur d'images

Je pense qu'on ne peut pas donner de type à une créature avec la mue (grâce au façonneur d'image), mais je voudrais en avoir confirmation vu que je n'arrive pas à retrouver l'endroit où je l'avais vu...

Merci

arf G vu ça aussi... Je confirme, wizard l'a clairement exprimé dès la sortie de Carnage : ON NE DONNE PAS DE TYPE DE CREATURE A LA MUE !
ça foutrait trop le bordel quand on la retourne, et il y aurait des blackout dans les règles.

c'est quoi le façonneur d'image?

adri1 y a un moteur de recherche

J'ai cherché et il n'est écrit nul part qu'une créature sans type ne peut acquérir de type. Par conséquent, le facçonneur peut parfaitement transformée une créature muée en aladin.

euh erreur
aladin n'est pas un type, mais bon on peut le transformer en bête, slivoïde, etc...

C'est quand même bizarre, je me souviens de l'avoir lu quelque part que c'était impossible...

ben ya deux points de vue differents:

-si la creature n'a pas de type, peut-etre qu'elle ne peux pas changer de type, vu qu'elle n'en a pas du tout.

-si la creature n'a pas de type, on peut lui en donner un.

oops, j'ai pas mis mon avis... d'apres moi c'est le deuxieme pt de vue..

humm... Et comment on gère ça quand on retourne la carte ?
Si le façonneur d'images avait transformé le cocon en sorcier et qu'en le retournant, ça devrait être un clerc, c'est quoi ?

Façonneur D'images
Artefact

: Choisissez un type de créature autre que légende ou mur. Le type de la créature ciblée devient le type que vous avez choisi jusqu'à la fin du tour.

Une mue, tant qu'elle reste face cachée c'est une incolore 2/2 n'ayant aucune capacité, aucun nom, aucun type de créature et un cout de mana de 0.
Par conséquent, il est impossible de ciblée une créature avec la mue par la capacité du façonneur d'image, puisqu'à la base, pour que le façonneur d'image puisse changé le type d'une créature en un autre type, il faut que la créature ciblée est un type. Or la mue n'a aucun type !

je suis plutôt de cet avis...

(ps : le façonneur est loin d'être un artefact)

C'est tout simple : comme dit précédemment, si tu retournes une mue à laquelle t'as donné un type, et que dès lors elle est son type normal de créature (ex : tu donnes le type gobelin à la mue, tu le retournes, c'est un elfe), il y a "blackout" dans les règles, c'est-à-dire un point des règle injugeable par qui que ce soit, les hypothèses étant toutes valables (ce qui a d'ailleurs emmerdé Wizards pendant je sais pas cb de temps avant la mise en place de la pile pour les sorts). C'est tout bête : une mue est 2/2, mais c'est tout ce qui la raproche d'une créature ; il est clair et net que'elle n'a pas de type, et qu'elle n'en aura un que quand elle sera retournée face visible...

Cyan, tu n'as pas compris... Tu ne peux pas cibler une mue avec le façonneur d'image puisque la mue n'a pas de type de créatures...
AgentPLE, je sais que le façonneur est loin d'être un artefact mais c'est le moteur de recherche qui bugge

Bon j'ai trouvé et j'avais raison

FAQ carnage

502.26. Morph

502.26a Morph is a static ability that functions any time you could play the card it's on, and the morph effect works until you turn the card face up. The phrase "Morph [cost]" means "You may play this card as a 2/2 face-down creature, with no text, no name, no subtypes, no expansion symbol, and a mana cost of , by paying rather than its mana cost." Any time you could play an instant, you may show all players the morph cost of any face-down permanent you control, pay that cost, then turn the permanent face up. This action does not use the stack.

502.26b To play a spell using its morph ability, turn it face down. It becomes a 2/2 face-down creature spell, with no text, no name, no subtypes, no expansion symbol, and a mana cost of . Put it onto the stack (it stays face-down with the same characteristics), and pay rather than pay its mana cost. You can use morph to play a spell from any zone from which you could normally play that spell. When the spell resolves, it comes into play with the same characteristics the spell had. The morph effect continues until the permanent is turned face up.

502.26c You can't play a card face down if it doesn't have morph.

502.26d Any time you could play an instant, you may turn a face-down permanent you control face up. To do this, show all players the permanent's morph cost, pay that cost, then turn the permanent face up. The morph effect on it ends, and it regains the card's normal characteristics. Any abilities relating to the permanent coming into play don't trigger when it's turned face up and don't have any effect, because the permanent has already come into play.

502.26e If a face-up permanent is turned face down by a spell or ability, it becomes a 2/2 face-down creature, with no text, no name, no subtypes, no expansion symbol, a mana cost of . The rules for morph and face-down spells and permanents apply to it normally.

502.26f See rule 504, "Face-Down Spells and Permanents," for more information on how to play cards with morph.

504. Face-Down Spells and Permanents

504.1. Two old cards (Camouflage and Illusionary Mask) and the morph ability (see rule 502.26), allow spells and permanents to be face down.

504.2. Face-down cards on the stack and face-down cards and tokens in play have no characteristics other than those listed by the card or rules that allow the card or token to be face down. Any listed characteristics are that card or token's initial characteristics. Permanents that are put into play face down are turned face down before they come into play, so the permanent's comes-into-play abilities won't trigger (if triggered) or have any effect (if static). Spells that are played face down are turned face down before they are put onto the stack, so effects that care about the characteristics of a spell will see only the face-down spell's characteristics. The cards remain face down as long as they are on the stack or in the in-play zone.

504.3. You may look at a face-down spell you control on the stack or a face-down permanent you control at any time. You can't look at face-down cards in any other zone or face-down spells or permanents controlled by another player. The card or rules that allow a permanent to be face down may also allow the permanent's controller to turn it face up. Spells normally can't be turned face up.

504.4. If you control multiple face-down spells on the stack or face-down permanents in play, you must ensure at all times that your face-down spells and permanents can be easily differentiated from each other. This includes, but is not limited to, knowing the order spells were played, the order that face-down permanents came into play, which creature attacked last turn, and any other differences between face-down spells or permanents. Common methods for distinguishing between face-down cards include using counters or dice to mark the different permanents, or clearly placing those permanents in order on the table.

504.5. As a face-down permanent is turned face up, its initial characteristics revert to its normal initial characteristics. Any effects that have been applied to the face-down permanent still apply to the face-up permanent. Any abilities relating to the permanent coming into play don't trigger and don't have any effect, because the permanent has already come into play.

504.6. If a face-down permanent moves from the in-play zone to any zone other than the phased-out zone, its owner must reveal it to all players as he or she moves it. If a face-down spell moves from the stack to any zone other than the in-play zone, its owner must reveal it to all players as he or she moves it. At the end of each game, all face-down spells and permanents must be revealed to all players.

* If a face-down creature phases out, it stays face down, and it stays face down when it phases back in.

* If a face-down creature is removed from the game, it's turned face up. If the creature returns to the game, it returns face up.

* You can't turn face-down spells on the stack face up.

* If a creature with morph has a static ability, the "timestamp" of the ability (see rule 418.5c of the Magic® Comprehensive Rules) is the time when the creature came into play, not when it was turned face up.

* Counters, effects, enchantments, and damage stay with a face-down creature when it's turned face up.

* Counters, effects, enchantments, and damage stay with a face-up creature when it's turned face down. (Any enchantments on it stay face up. They aren't turned face-down along with the creature.)

* Turning a creature face up or face down won't change when it came into play, so the creature's ability to attack or use activated abilities which include the tap symbol will be unaffected.

* If you turn a face-down creature face up while its combat damage is on the stack and that creature has an ability which triggers "Whenever this creature deals combat damage," that ability will trigger when the combat damage resolves.

* Turning a permanent face up or face down doesn't tap or untap it.

* If you gain control of a face-down creature, you can look at what it is, and you can pay its morph cost to turn it face up. Your opponent can't, although he or she will know what the creature is.

* If a creature is turned face down in response to one of its abilities being played, that ability will resolve normally.

* Face-down creatures have no intrinsic creature types. They can be given creature types by effects.

* Face-down creatures don't have any abilities, so they aren't considered to have the morph ability. Face-up creatures with morph do have the ability.

* Illusionary Mask and Camouflage have been given errata to make them work properly with these new rules for face-down spells and permanents.

* If a spell or ability tells you to turn a face-down permanent face up, you don't have to pay that permanent's morph cost.

* If a face-down creature is targeted by a spell or ability on the stack and the creature is turned face up, the spell or ability targets the face-up creature. Check to see if the creature is a legal target when the spell or ability resolves.

* Turning a face-down creature with an evasion ability face up after it's been blocked doesn't affect the blockers, because restrictions on blocking are only checked at the time blockers are declared.

* A face-down creature spell can be countered just like any other creature spell.

* The Planeshift card Meddling Mage can't prevent a card from being played face down.